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Крупные корабли альт. флота СССР
von Echenbach: Крупные - основные, большие. Синонимов много. Плав. батареи, мониторы прибрежные, крейсера легкие и прочие, линкоры и броненосцы береговой обороны... какие пути могли бы быть избраны в зависимости от принятой стратегии и имеющихся возможностей? Экономические возможности близки к реалу - для ув. сочинителей.
dr5r: von Echenbach пишет: многие моторы сложно-ненадежно с т.зр. конструкции валосопряжения. Я ж написал -- дизель-генераторы. Естественно, что моторы -- на собственно гребном валу. Инженер Сидоров пишет: Ставим 10 (16, 20) сколько надо дизгенераторов постоянного тока Можно и переменного, ртутные выпрямители и тогда уже со стальными корпусами появились.
dr5r: von Echenbach пишет: более скромные требования к скорости: до 9-12 уз, и желательно - добавление булей. Скорость можно и ужать (получится 2-4 тыс. л.с.), но були с ледокольностью не сочетаются.
von Echenbach: Ледокольные БР - поначалу и без булей можно, фактически являются поводом для сохранения хотя-бы некоторых единиц с некоторым боевым значением. Интересна роль Немитца А. В. в планах сохранения-создания флота. + Альтфатер и Беренс с Римским-Корсаковым. Петров и Гончаров - как наиболее литературно известные, до середины 30-х больше занимались тактическими изысками.
von Echenbach: Немножко возвращаясь к аи-версиям аи-"Светланы"... 1. электродвижение с установкой дизельгенераторов на внутренние (или внешние) валы с сохранением турбин на оставшиеся валы. Как вариант - перевод турбин на тЗ или генерирующие системы с полным электродвижением. Освобождаются по две турбины из готовых комплектов. Уменьшаем количество котлов и КО до 1-2. В силуэте две трубы. Носовая м.б. встроена в фок-мачту 2. Артиллерия: 203 мм. 4х2 (ретирадно-линейное) или 5-6х2 (с архитектурой "Исе"). Носовая группа может быть разнесенно-линейное размещение башен. Башни - модернизированные и перебронированные установки с ЭБР и частично - новые. Скорострельность - до 4-6 выстр. в минуту + 4х2 100 (76)мм и 6-8 45-37мм. 3. Снижение скорости до 26-25 уз и возможное применение булей. аи Светлана 12 203 диз-электр, аи-СССР Лг-ТКР аи laid down 1926. С булями. Без булей - страдает остойчивость при водоизмещении 8800 т. Displacement: 10 188 t light; 10 702 t standard; 10 974 t normal; 11 192 t full load Dimensions: Length (overall / waterline) x beam x draught (normal/deep) (548,13 ft / 531,50 ft) x 51,51 ft (Bulges 64,63 ft) x (19,69 / 20,07 ft) (167,07 m / 162,00 m) x 15,70 m (Bulges 19,70 m) x (6,00 / 6,12 m) Armament: 12 - 7,99" / 203 mm 45,0 cal guns - 257,42lbs / 116,76kg shells, 150 per gun Breech loading guns in turret on barbette mounts, 1926 Model 4 x 2-gun mounts on centreline, aft evenly spread 2 raised mounts 2 x 2-gun mounts on centreline, forward deck forward 1 raised mount - superfiring 8 - 3,94" / 100 mm 45,0 cal guns - 30,77lbs / 13,96kg shells, 250 per gun Dual purpose guns in deck mounts, 1926 Model 4 x 2-gun mounts on sides, aft evenly spread 2 raised mounts 6 - 1,46" / 37,0 mm 45,0 cal guns - 1,56lbs / 0,71kg shells, 650 per gun Auto rapid fire guns in deck mounts, 1926 Model 6 x Single mounts on sides, forward evenly spread Weight of broadside 3 345 lbs / 1 517 kg Main Torpedoes 6 - 17,7" / 450 mm, 19,69 ft / 6,00 m torpedoes - 0,973 t each, 5,836 t total In 2 sets of deck mounted side rotating tubes Main DC/AS Mortars 2 - 110,23 lbs / 50,00 kg Depth Charges + 8 reloads - 0,492 t total in Stern depth charge racks Armour: - Belts: Width (max) Length (avg) Height (avg) Main: 2,99" / 76 mm 357,61 ft / 109,00 m 13,12 ft / 4,00 m Ends: 0,71" / 18 mm 134,51 ft / 41,00 m 13,12 ft / 4,00 m 39,37 ft / 12,00 m Unarmoured ends Main Belt covers 104% of normal length - Gun armour: Face (max) Other gunhouse (avg) Barbette/hoist (max) Main: 2,99" / 76 mm 1,46" / 37 mm 2,99" / 76 mm 2nd: 0,59" / 15 mm - - 3rd: 0,28" / 7 mm - - - Armoured deck - multiple decks: For and Aft decks: 1,46" / 37 mm Forecastle: 0,71" / 18 mm Quarter deck: 0,71" / 18 mm - Conning towers: Forward 2,99" / 76 mm, Aft 0,47" / 12 mm Machinery: Oil fired boilers, steam turbines, plus diesel motors, Electric motors, 4 shafts, 39 879 shp / 29 750 Kw = 26,00 kts Range 1 800nm at 14,00 kts Bunker at max displacement = 490 tons Complement: 535 - 696 Cost: £2,893 million / $11,573 million Distribution of weights at normal displacement: Armament: 929 tons, 8,5% - Guns: 917 tons, 8,4% - Weapons: 12 tons, 0,1% Armour: 1 540 tons, 14,0% - Belts: 621 tons, 5,7% - Armament: 383 tons, 3,5% - Armour Deck: 499 tons, 4,5% - Conning Towers: 37 tons, 0,3% Machinery: 1 277 tons, 11,6% Hull, fittings & equipment: 6 442 tons, 58,7% Fuel, ammunition & stores: 786 tons, 7,2% Miscellaneous weights: 0 tons, 0,0% Overall survivability and seakeeping ability: Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship): 16 355 lbs / 7 418 Kg = 64,1 x 8,0 " / 203 mm shells or 3,6 torpedoes Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1,11 Metacentric height 2,2 ft / 0,7 m Roll period: 18,1 seconds Steadiness - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 55 % - Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0,63 Seaboat quality (Average = 1.00): 1,09 Hull form characteristics: Hull has rise forward of midbreak, a normal bow and small transom stern Block coefficient (normal/deep): 0,568 / 0,568 Length to Beam Ratio: 8,22 : 1 'Natural speed' for length: 24,85 kts Power going to wave formation at top speed: 52 % Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 50 Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 21,00 degrees Stern overhang: 6,56 ft / 2,00 m Freeboard (% = length of deck as a percentage of waterline length): Fore end, Aft end - Forecastle: 17,00%, 26,25 ft / 8,00 m, 19,69 ft / 6,00 m - Forward deck: 30,00%, 19,69 ft / 6,00 m, 19,69 ft / 6,00 m - Aft deck: 40,00%, 13,12 ft / 4,00 m, 13,12 ft / 4,00 m - Quarter deck: 13,00%, 13,12 ft / 4,00 m, 14,76 ft / 4,50 m - Average freeboard: 16,76 ft / 5,11 m Ship space, strength and comments: Space - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 64,4% - Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 110,8% Waterplane Area: 19 915 Square feet or 1 850 Square metres Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 157% Structure weight / hull surface area: 209 lbs/sq ft or 1 020 Kg/sq metre Hull strength (Relative): - Cross-sectional: 1,80 - Longitudinal: 2,32 - Overall: 1,85 Excellent machinery, storage, compartmentation space Adequate accommodation and workspace room Три - по исходному проекту, три - по проекту эл-ход и 12 8", два - по проекту ПВО.
von Echenbach: Предложение применения брони и железа "Измаилов", особенно корпусов малой готовности, подойдут и Мария с Николаем, и "Своб. Россия" с "Волей", "Фрунзе". Линейный крейсер БО: laid down 1932 Displacement: 16 924 t light; 18 049 t standard; 18 456 t normal; 18 781 t full load Dimensions: Length (overall / waterline) x beam x draught (normal/deep) (589,52 ft / 564,30 ft) x 91,86 ft x (19,69 / 19,96 ft) (179,69 m / 172,00 m) x 28,00 m x (6,00 / 6,09 m) Armament: 9 - 14,02" / 356 mm 52,0 cal guns - 1 470,00lbs / 666,78kg shells, 90 per gun Breech loading guns in turret on barbette mounts, 1932 Model 1 x 3-gun mount on centreline, forward deck forward 2 x 3-gun mounts on centreline, aft evenly spread 20 - 3,94" / 100,0 mm 45,0 cal guns - 30,77lbs / 13,96kg shells, 250 per gun Dual purpose guns in deck mounts, 1932 Model 10 x Single mounts on sides, forward deck aft 4 raised mounts - superfiring 12 - 1,46" / 37,0 mm 45,0 cal guns - 1,56lbs / 0,71kg shells, 900 per gun Auto rapid fire guns in deck mounts, 1932 Model 12 x Single mounts on sides, evenly spread Weight of broadside 13 864 lbs / 6 289 kg Armour: - Belts: Width (max) Length (avg) Height (avg) Main: 7,09" / 180 mm 321,52 ft / 98,00 m 8,20 ft / 2,50 m Ends: 1,18" / 30 mm 170,60 ft / 52,00 m 9,84 ft / 3,00 m 72,18 ft / 22,00 m Unarmoured ends Main Belt covers 88% of normal length - Gun armour: Face (max) Other gunhouse (avg) Barbette/hoist (max) Main: 7,09" / 180 mm 3,54" / 90 mm 7,09" / 180 mm 2nd: 1,18" / 30 mm 0,59" / 15 mm - - Armoured deck - single deck: For and Aft decks: 2,52" / 64 mm Forecastle: 0,71" / 18 mm Quarter deck: 1,42" / 36 mm - Conning towers: Forward 4,72" / 120 mm, Aft 1,18" / 30 mm Machinery: Oil fired boilers, steam turbines, Electric cruising motors plus geared drives, 3 shafts, 30 875 shp / 23 033 Kw = 22,00 kts Range 2 600nm at 12,00 kts Bunker at max displacement = 731 tons Complement: 791 - 1 029 Cost: £9,894 million / $39,576 million Distribution of weights at normal displacement: Armament: 3 302 tons, 17,9% - Guns: 3 302 tons, 17,9% Armour: 3 681 tons, 19,9% - Belts: 930 tons, 5,0% - Armament: 936 tons, 5,1% - Armour Deck: 1 727 tons, 9,4% - Conning Towers: 89 tons, 0,5% Machinery: 911 tons, 4,9% Hull, fittings & equipment: 9 029 tons, 48,9% Fuel, ammunition & stores: 1 532 tons, 8,3% Miscellaneous weights: 0 tons, 0,0% Overall survivability and seakeeping ability: Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship): 23 545 lbs / 10 680 Kg = 17,1 x 14,0 " / 356 mm shells or 2,8 torpedoes Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1,38 Metacentric height 7,7 ft / 2,4 m Roll period: 13,9 seconds Steadiness - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 52 % - Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0,43 Seaboat quality (Average = 1.00): 1,04 Hull form characteristics: Hull has a flush deck, a straight bulbous bow and large transom stern Block coefficient (normal/deep): 0,633 / 0,635 Length to Beam Ratio: 6,14 : 1 'Natural speed' for length: 27,82 kts Power going to wave formation at top speed: 46 % Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 50 Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 21,00 degrees Stern overhang: 16,40 ft / 5,00 m Freeboard (% = length of deck as a percentage of waterline length): Fore end, Aft end - Forecastle: 18,00%, 22,97 ft / 7,00 m, 16,40 ft / 5,00 m - Forward deck: 30,00%, 16,40 ft / 5,00 m, 13,12 ft / 4,00 m - Aft deck: 37,00%, 13,12 ft / 4,00 m, 13,12 ft / 4,00 m - Quarter deck: 15,00%, 13,12 ft / 4,00 m, 14,76 ft / 4,50 m - Average freeboard: 14,80 ft / 4,51 m Ship tends to be wet forward Ship space, strength and comments: Space - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 86,2% - Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 136,1% Waterplane Area: 40 774 Square feet or 3 788 Square metres Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 95% Structure weight / hull surface area: 217 lbs/sq ft or 1 062 Kg/sq metre Hull strength (Relative): - Cross-sectional: 1,20 - Longitudinal: 1,51 - Overall: 1,23 Adequate machinery, storage, compartmentation space Excellent accommodation and workspace room или ЛК БО: laid down 1932 Displacement: 21 986 t light; 23 217 t standard; 23 729 t normal; 24 138 t full load Dimensions: Length (overall / waterline) x beam x draught (normal/deep) (589,52 ft / 564,30 ft) x 91,86 ft (Bulges 118,11 ft) x (19,69 / 20,04 ft) (179,69 m / 172,00 m) x 28,00 m (Bulges 36,00 m) x (6,00 / 6,11 m) Armament: 9 - 14,02" / 356 mm 52,0 cal guns - 1 470,00lbs / 666,78kg shells, 90 per gun Breech loading guns in turret on barbette mounts, 1932 Model 1 x 3-gun mount on centreline, forward deck forward 2 x 3-gun mounts on centreline, aft evenly spread 1 raised mount aft 20 - 3,94" / 100,0 mm 45,0 cal guns - 30,77lbs / 13,96kg shells, 250 per gun Dual purpose guns in deck mounts, 1932 Model 10 x Single mounts on sides, forward deck aft 4 raised mounts - superfiring 12 - 1,46" / 37,0 mm 45,0 cal guns - 1,56lbs / 0,71kg shells, 900 per gun Auto rapid fire guns in deck mounts, 1932 Model 12 x Single mounts on sides, evenly spread Weight of broadside 13 864 lbs / 6 289 kg Armour: - Belts: Width (max) Length (avg) Height (avg) Main: 12,6" / 320 mm 321,52 ft / 98,00 m 8,20 ft / 2,50 m Ends: 2,36" / 60 mm 170,60 ft / 52,00 m 9,84 ft / 3,00 m 72,18 ft / 22,00 m Unarmoured ends Main Belt covers 88% of normal length - Hull Bulges: 0,35" / 9 mm 331,36 ft / 101,00 m 13,12 ft / 4,00 m - Gun armour: Face (max) Other gunhouse (avg) Barbette/hoist (max) Main: 12,6" / 320 mm 4,72" / 120 mm 12,6" / 320 mm 2nd: 1,18" / 30 mm 0,59" / 15 mm - - Armoured deck - single deck: For and Aft decks: 3,54" / 90 mm Forecastle: 0,79" / 20 mm Quarter deck: 2,36" / 60 mm - Conning towers: Forward 12,60" / 320 mm, Aft 1,18" / 30 mm Machinery: Oil fired boilers, steam turbines, Electric cruising motors plus geared drives, 3 shafts, 20 506 shp / 15 297 Kw = 18,00 kts Range 2 600nm at 12,00 kts Bunker at max displacement = 920 tons Complement: 955 - 1 242 Cost: £10,505 million / $42,018 million Distribution of weights at normal displacement: Armament: 3 302 tons, 13,9% - Guns: 3 302 tons, 13,9% Armour: 6 198 tons, 26,1% - Belts: 1 669 tons, 7,0% - Bulges: 57 tons, 0,2% - Armament: 1 783 tons, 7,5% - Armour Deck: 2 444 tons, 10,3% - Conning Towers: 245 tons, 1,0% Machinery: 605 tons, 2,6% Hull, fittings & equipment: 11 880 tons, 50,1% Fuel, ammunition & stores: 1 742 tons, 7,3% Miscellaneous weights: 0 tons, 0,0% Overall survivability and seakeeping ability: Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship): 40 945 lbs / 18 572 Kg = 29,7 x 14,0 " / 356 mm shells or 5,3 torpedoes Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1,50 Metacentric height 8,8 ft / 2,7 m Roll period: 16,7 seconds Steadiness - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 56 % - Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0,24 Seaboat quality (Average = 1.00): 1,12 Hull form characteristics: Hull has rise forward of midbreak, a straight bulbous bow and large transom stern Block coefficient (normal/deep): 0,633 / 0,633 Length to Beam Ratio: 4,78 : 1 'Natural speed' for length: 28,50 kts Power going to wave formation at top speed: 38 % Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 50 Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 21,00 degrees Stern overhang: 16,40 ft / 5,00 m Freeboard (% = length of deck as a percentage of waterline length): Fore end, Aft end - Forecastle: 18,00%, 22,97 ft / 7,00 m, 19,69 ft / 6,00 m - Forward deck: 30,00%, 19,69 ft / 6,00 m, 19,69 ft / 6,00 m - Aft deck: 37,00%, 13,12 ft / 4,00 m, 13,12 ft / 4,00 m - Quarter deck: 15,00%, 13,12 ft / 4,00 m, 14,76 ft / 4,50 m - Average freeboard: 16,63 ft / 5,07 m Ship tends to be wet forward Ship space, strength and comments: Space - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 63,4% - Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 130,6% Waterplane Area: 40 774 Square feet or 3 788 Square metres Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 111% Structure weight / hull surface area: 250 lbs/sq ft or 1 219 Kg/sq metre Hull strength (Relative): - Cross-sectional: 1,20 - Longitudinal: 1,67 - Overall: 1,24 Excellent machinery, storage, compartmentation space Excellent accommodation and workspace room по 2 лк на Б,Ч и С. + 2 лнКр на Балтике (лнкр меньше и дешевле - но нужно ли их делать? Или только-всего 2 лнкр для Балтики и "показа флага"?)
von Echenbach: Ещё раз о многообещавшем учебном ЛК Фрунзе: 3з3 305 без носовой, були, 8х2=16 76\затем 100-мм, которые встроены в средние казематы; носовая 1х2 203 - "опытная и возвышенная" до уровня короткого полубака, башня. laid down 1924 Displacement: 22 211 t light; 23 343 t standard; 23 759 t normal; 24 091 t full load Dimensions: Length (overall / waterline) x beam x draught (normal/deep) (617,81 ft / 603,67 ft) x 88,58 ft (Bulges 108,27 ft) x (22,97 / 23,28 ft) (188,31 m / 184,00 m) x 27,00 m (Bulges 33,00 m) x (7,00 / 7,09 m) Armament: 9 - 12,01" / 305 mm 52,0 cal guns - 924,41lbs / 419,31kg shells, 110 per gun Breech loading guns in turret on barbette mounts, 1924 Model 2 x 3-gun mounts on centreline, aft evenly spread 1 x 3-gun mount on centreline, forward deck aft 2 - 7,99" / 203 mm 45,0 cal guns - 257,42lbs / 116,76kg shells, 150 per gun Breech loading guns in turret on barbette mount, 1924 Model 1 x 2-gun mount on centreline, forward deck forward 8 - 4,72" / 120 mm 50,0 cal guns - 55,82lbs / 25,32kg shells, 150 per gun Quick firing guns in casemate mounts, 1924 Model 4 x Single mounts on sides, aft deck aft 4 hull mounts in casemates- Limited use in heavy seas 4 x Single mounts on sides, forward deck forward 4 hull mounts in casemates- Limited use in heavy seas 16 - 3,94" / 100,0 mm 45,0 cal guns - 30,77lbs / 13,96kg shells, 250 per gun Dual purpose guns in deck mounts, 1924 Model 4 x 2-gun mounts on sides, aft deck forward 4 x 2-gun mounts on sides, forward deck aft Weight of broadside 9 773 lbs / 4 433 kg Armour: - Belts: Width (max) Length (avg) Height (avg) Main: 8,86" / 225 mm 275,59 ft / 84,00 m 13,12 ft / 4,00 m Ends: 4,92" / 125 mm 288,71 ft / 88,00 m 13,12 ft / 4,00 m 39,37 ft / 12,00 m Unarmoured ends Main Belt covers 70% of normal length - Gun armour: Face (max) Other gunhouse (avg) Barbette/hoist (max) Main: 7,99" / 203 mm 4,02" / 102 mm 7,99" / 203 mm 2nd: 4,92" / 125 mm 2,99" / 76 mm 4,92" / 125 mm 3rd: 2,99" / 76 mm 1,26" / 32 mm - 4th: 1,18" / 30 mm 0,59" / 15 mm - - Armoured deck - multiple decks: For and Aft decks: 3,78" / 96 mm Forecastle: 1,26" / 32 mm Quarter deck: 2,52" / 64 mm - Conning towers: Forward 9,84" / 250 mm, Aft 4,02" / 102 mm Machinery: Coal and oil fired boilers, steam turbines, Geared drive, 4 shafts, 43 418 shp / 32 390 Kw = 23,00 kts Range 2 000nm at 12,00 kts Bunker at max displacement = 748 tons (33% coal) Complement: 956 - 1 243 Cost: £6,111 million / $24,443 million Distribution of weights at normal displacement: Armament: 2 426 tons, 10,2% - Guns: 2 426 tons, 10,2% Armour: 6 094 tons, 25,7% - Belts: 2 193 tons, 9,2% - Armament: 1 214 tons, 5,1% - Armour Deck: 2 441 tons, 10,3% - Conning Towers: 247 tons, 1,0% Machinery: 1 474 tons, 6,2% Hull, fittings & equipment: 12 217 tons, 51,4% Fuel, ammunition & stores: 1 548 tons, 6,5% Miscellaneous weights: 0 tons, 0,0% Overall survivability and seakeeping ability: Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship): 45 402 lbs / 20 594 Kg = 52,4 x 12,0 " / 305 mm shells or 5,4 torpedoes Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1,42 Metacentric height 7,6 ft / 2,3 m Roll period: 16,4 seconds Steadiness - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 69 % - Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0,26 Seaboat quality (Average = 1.00): 1,39 Hull form characteristics: Hull has raised forecastle, a normal bow and a cruiser stern Block coefficient (normal/deep): 0,554 / 0,554 Length to Beam Ratio: 5,58 : 1 'Natural speed' for length: 24,57 kts Power going to wave formation at top speed: 47 % Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 50 Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 13,00 degrees Stern overhang: 6,56 ft / 2,00 m Freeboard (% = length of deck as a percentage of waterline length): Fore end, Aft end - Forecastle: 17,00%, 32,81 ft / 10,00 m, 26,25 ft / 8,00 m - Forward deck: 30,00%, 19,69 ft / 6,00 m, 19,69 ft / 6,00 m - Aft deck: 39,00%, 19,69 ft / 6,00 m, 19,69 ft / 6,00 m - Quarter deck: 14,00%, 19,69 ft / 6,00 m, 19,69 ft / 6,00 m - Average freeboard: 21,25 ft / 6,48 m Ship space, strength and comments: Space - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 58,8% - Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 146,9% Waterplane Area: 37 460 Square feet or 3 480 Square metres Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 128% Structure weight / hull surface area: 245 lbs/sq ft or 1 198 Kg/sq metre Hull strength (Relative): - Cross-sectional: 1,39 - Longitudinal: 2,19 - Overall: 1,46 Excellent machinery, storage, compartmentation space Excellent accommodation and workspace room Good seaboat, rides out heavy weather easily
von Echenbach: Корабли проектов «Чакри Нарубет» и «Принсипе де Астуриас» (эскортные АВ) - при адаптации к постройке в Испании с 1932-30 г. М.б. по заказу СССР?
von Echenbach: Ещё один вариант по ЛК: 4: 2 - Б (Марат, ОР), 2 - Ч (Парижанка, Демократия). Фрунзе и Имп. Мария - учебно-десантные корабли: 1х3 305 кормовая, 12-120, 12 (6х2) 100, 3-9 Гидросамолетов, 6 десантных ботов, ... Из Бизерты увести на север: Кагул, 2-3 пл, ТР, 6 новиков и артиллерию с запасами с Александра ( и м.б. турбины с винтами).
von Echenbach: Достройка аи-Измаила и аи-Кинбурн: аи! С помощью немцев на Большевике-хОбухове делают 406/42, турбины снимают с Марии и Екатерины (всё аккуратно подняли и реставрировали, попутно восстановили часть технологий и приобрели лицензионные новые), вследствие применения в качестве кораблей поддержки (и недостаточных возможностей) уменьшили скорость и дальность с усилением ПТЗ. + 100-мм в стабилизированных установках. laid down 1928 Displacement: 29 099 t light; 30 860 t standard; 31 484 t normal; 31 982 t full load Dimensions: Length (overall / waterline) x beam x draught (normal/deep) (754,78 ft / 734,91 ft) x 100,07 ft x (28,87 / 29,22 ft) (230,06 m / 224,00 m) x 30,50 m x (8,80 / 8,91 m) Armament: 8 - 15,98" / 406 mm 42,0 cal guns - 1 980,10lbs / 898,16kg shells, 120 per gun Breech loading guns in turret on barbette mounts, 1928 Model 4 x 2-gun mounts on centreline, evenly spread 16 - 3,94" / 100,0 mm 45,0 cal guns - 30,77lbs / 13,96kg shells, 250 per gun Dual purpose guns in casemate mounts, 1928 Model 16 x Single mounts on sides, forward deck aft 16 hull mounts in casemates- Limited use in heavy seas 12 - 1,46" / 37,0 mm 55,0 cal guns - 1,67lbs / 0,76kg shells, 650 per gun Auto rapid fire guns in deck mounts, 1928 Model 12 x Single mounts on sides, evenly spread Weight of broadside 16 353 lbs / 7 418 kg Armour: - Belts: Width (max) Length (avg) Height (avg) Main: 9,33" / 237 mm 262,47 ft / 80,00 m 14,76 ft / 4,50 m Ends: 5,00" / 127 mm 426,51 ft / 130,00 m 14,76 ft / 4,50 m 45,93 ft / 14,00 m Unarmoured ends Main Belt covers 55% of normal length - Gun armour: Face (max) Other gunhouse (avg) Barbette/hoist (max) Main: 11,0" / 280 mm 3,94" / 100 mm 11,8" / 300 mm 2nd: 1,57" / 40 mm 0,79" / 20 mm - 3rd: 0,35" / 9 mm - - - Armoured deck - multiple decks: For and Aft decks: 3,94" / 100 mm Forecastle: 2,36" / 60 mm Quarter deck: 2,36" / 60 mm - Conning towers: Forward 8,66" / 220 mm, Aft 0,00" / 0 mm Machinery: Oil fired boilers, steam turbines, Direct drive, 4 shafts, 39 562 shp / 29 513 Kw = 22,00 kts Range 2 200nm at 14,00 kts Bunker at max displacement = 1 122 tons Complement: 1 181 - 1 536 Cost: £9,906 million / $39,623 million Distribution of weights at normal displacement: Armament: 3 027 tons, 9,6% - Guns: 3 027 tons, 9,6% Armour: 9 042 tons, 28,7% - Belts: 2 945 tons, 9,4% - Armament: 2 490 tons, 7,9% - Armour Deck: 3 421 tons, 10,9% - Conning Tower: 186 tons, 0,6% Machinery: 1 232 tons, 3,9% Hull, fittings & equipment: 15 798 tons, 50,2% Fuel, ammunition & stores: 2 385 tons, 7,6% Miscellaneous weights: 0 tons, 0,0% Overall survivability and seakeeping ability: Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship): 60 963 lbs / 27 652 Kg = 29,9 x 16,0 " / 406 mm shells or 5,8 torpedoes Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1,15 Metacentric height 6,5 ft / 2,0 m Roll period: 16,5 seconds Steadiness - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 71 % - Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0,69 Seaboat quality (Average = 1.00): 1,41 Hull form characteristics: Hull has rise forward of midbreak, a normal bow and a cruiser stern Block coefficient (normal/deep): 0,519 / 0,521 Length to Beam Ratio: 7,34 : 1 'Natural speed' for length: 27,11 kts Power going to wave formation at top speed: 36 % Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 50 Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 17,00 degrees Stern overhang: 9,84 ft / 3,00 m Freeboard (% = length of deck as a percentage of waterline length): Fore end, Aft end - Forecastle: 18,00%, 32,81 ft / 10,00 m, 26,25 ft / 8,00 m - Forward deck: 18,00%, 26,25 ft / 8,00 m, 26,25 ft / 8,00 m - Aft deck: 50,00%, 19,69 ft / 6,00 m, 19,69 ft / 6,00 m - Quarter deck: 14,00%, 19,69 ft / 6,00 m, 19,69 ft / 6,00 m - Average freeboard: 22,52 ft / 6,86 m Ship space, strength and comments: Space - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 54,6% - Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 172,3% Waterplane Area: 49 860 Square feet or 4 632 Square metres Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 127% Structure weight / hull surface area: 244 lbs/sq ft or 1 193 Kg/sq metre Hull strength (Relative): - Cross-sectional: 1,25 - Longitudinal: 1,81 - Overall: 1,30 Excellent machinery, storage, compartmentation space Excellent accommodation and workspace room Ship has slow, easy roll, a good, steady gun platform Good seaboat, rides out heavy weather easily
von Echenbach: Возможно ли было восстановить машины или часть машин черноморских броненосцев, применяя детали от машин Цесаревича, Павла-Андрея и Рюрика, Громобоя, России? М.б. даже полна замена машин, пусть и не с высшим ходом, а только до уровня плавбатарей (8-12 уз, 2х2 12",8 6" и 4 -8 3" зенитных)? Или можно было бы использовать дизель-электрическую схему в 4-6 дизелей + м.б. и эл.моторы по 200-500 л.с.?
von Echenbach: Авиатранспорты СССР. На основе проекта лесовозов "Тов. Красин", с дизель-электрической ГЭУ, два винта. Могли входить в состав оперативной группы, в отряд прикрытия. При тактическом построении-аи: Маневренная группа: 1. отряд главных сил: 1 ЛК, 1 КР ПВО, 4-6 СКР быстроходных и 2-3 ЭМ, 3. Отряд лёгких сил (разведывательный): 1 ЛгКР, 3-4 ЭМ, 3. Отряд прикрытия/транспортный: 1 АвТР, 2 ЭМ, 4 СКР, ТР/корабли снабжения, 4. Отряд обеспечения: 2 СКР, 4-6 ТЩ, 2 КЛ, 2-3 ПЛ. По 1 (2 при положительном эффекте, или как учебные) в составе БФ, ЧФ, ФлСЛО ( поначалу в пограичной и спасательной службе). тип "Комсомолец" (Комсомолец, Пионер, Лётчик). 4500 т, 14/8 уз, 8х1 76, 4х1 37, Авиационная часть - 2 катапульты, 1 в носу, стационарная, 2- в корме, поворотная, Двухуровневый ангар. 12 ГС в сложенном/транспортном виде и 6 в предполётном, всего 18+2. 2-4 крана. Доброго старого "Океана" оставить как и был - учебным, с модернизацией двигательных систем. laid down 1926 Displacement: 4 040 t light; 4 136 t standard; 4 209 t normal; 4 268 t full load Dimensions: Length (overall / waterline) x beam x draught (normal/deep) (306,30 ft / 291,99 ft) x 52,49 ft x (14,76 / 14,94 ft) (93,36 m / 89,00 m) x 16,00 m x (4,50 / 4,55 m) Armament: 8 - 2,99" / 76,0 mm 45,0 cal guns - 13,51lbs / 6,13kg shells, 150 per gun Dual purpose guns in deck mounts, 1926 Model 8 x Single mounts on sides, evenly spread 4 - 1,46" / 37,0 mm 45,0 cal guns - 1,56lbs / 0,71kg shells, 650 per gun Auto rapid fire guns in deck mounts, 1926 Model 4 x Single mounts on sides, evenly spread Weight of broadside 114 lbs / 52 kg Armour: - Belts: Width (max) Length (avg) Height (avg) Main: 0,71" / 18 mm 147,64 ft / 45,00 m 8,20 ft / 2,50 m Ends: 0,47" / 12 mm 144,36 ft / 44,00 m 9,84 ft / 3,00 m Main Belt covers 78% of normal length - Gun armour: Face (max) Other gunhouse (avg) Barbette/hoist (max) 2nd: 0,35" / 9 mm - - 3rd: 0,24" / 6 mm - - - Armoured deck - multiple decks: For and Aft decks: 0,47" / 12 mm - Conning towers: Forward 0,47" / 12 mm, Aft 0,00" / 0 mm Machinery: Diesel Internal combustion motors, Electric cruising motors plus geared drives, 2 shafts, 2 843 shp / 2 121 Kw = 14,00 kts Range 2 200nm at 9,00 kts Bunker at max displacement = 132 tons Complement: 260 - 339 Cost: £0,553 million / $2,211 million Distribution of weights at normal displacement: Armament: 24 tons, 0,6% - Guns: 24 tons, 0,6% Armour: 162 tons, 3,8% - Belts: 66 tons, 1,6% - Armament: 9 tons, 0,2% - Armour Deck: 84 tons, 2,0% - Conning Tower: 3 tons, 0,1% Machinery: 91 tons, 2,2% Hull, fittings & equipment: 1 114 tons, 26,5% Fuel, ammunition & stores: 169 tons, 4,0% Miscellaneous weights: 2 650 tons, 63,0% - Hull below water: 2 400 tons - Hull above water: 200 tons - On freeboard deck: 50 tons Overall survivability and seakeeping ability: Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship): 7 843 lbs / 3 558 Kg = 72,6 x 6 " / 152 mm shells or 1,6 torpedoes Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1,92 Metacentric height 5,4 ft / 1,6 m Roll period: 9,5 seconds Steadiness - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 100 % - Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0,02 Seaboat quality (Average = 1.00): 2,00 Hull form characteristics: Hull has raised forecastle, raised quarterdeck , a normal bow and a round stern Block coefficient (normal/deep): 0,651 / 0,652 Length to Beam Ratio: 5,56 : 1 'Natural speed' for length: 17,09 kts Power going to wave formation at top speed: 42 % Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 50 Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 11,00 degrees Stern overhang: 9,84 ft / 3,00 m Freeboard (% = length of deck as a percentage of waterline length): Fore end, Aft end - Forecastle: 20,00%, 22,97 ft / 7,00 m, 19,69 ft / 6,00 m - Forward deck: 30,00%, 13,12 ft / 4,00 m, 13,12 ft / 4,00 m - Aft deck: 35,00%, 13,12 ft / 4,00 m, 13,12 ft / 4,00 m - Quarter deck: 15,00%, 19,69 ft / 6,00 m, 19,69 ft / 6,00 m - Average freeboard: 15,68 ft / 4,78 m Ship space, strength and comments: Space - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 76,1% - Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 113,0% Waterplane Area: 11 753 Square feet or 1 092 Square metres Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 138% Structure weight / hull surface area: 66 lbs/sq ft or 324 Kg/sq metre Hull strength (Relative): - Cross-sectional: 1,02 - Longitudinal: 2,44 - Overall: 1,11 Excellent machinery, storage, compartmentation space Adequate accommodation and workspace room Ship has slow, easy roll, a good, steady gun platform Excellent seaboat, comfortable, can fire her guns in the heaviest weather
von Echenbach: Неожиданный вариант аи-Красный Кавказ: були, 4х1 305/52, 12х2 76/45, 8 37/45, 4-6 12,7, 2х3 та 450. 27 уз. laid down 1930, Displacement: 9 973 t light; 10 439 t standard; 10 696 t normal; 10 902 t full load Dimensions: Length (overall / waterline) x beam x draught (normal/deep) (558,20 ft / 544,62 ft) x 52,49 ft (Bulges 65,62 ft) x (20,34 / 20,71 ft) (170,14 m / 166,00 m) x 16,00 m (Bulges 20,00 m) x (6,20 / 6,31 m) Armament: 4 - 12,01" / 305 mm 52,0 cal guns - 924,41lbs / 419,31kg shells, 90 per gun Breech loading guns in turret on barbette mounts, 1930 Model 2 x Single mounts on centreline, forward deck forward 1 raised mount - superfiring 2 x Single mounts on centreline, aft deck aft 1 raised mount aft - superfiring 24 - 2,99" / 76,0 mm 45,0 cal guns - 13,51lbs / 6,13kg shells, 350 per gun Dual purpose guns in deck mounts, 1930 Model 8 x 2-gun mounts on sides, forward deck aft 4 x 2-gun mounts on sides, aft deck forward 8 - 1,46" / 37,0 mm 45,0 cal guns - 1,56lbs / 0,71kg shells, 550 per gun Auto rapid fire guns in deck mounts, 1930 Model 6 x Single mounts on sides, forward deck aft 6 raised mounts 2 x Single mounts on sides, aft deck forward 2 raised mounts Weight of broadside 4 034 lbs / 1 830 kg Main Torpedoes 6 - 17,7" / 450 mm, 16,40 ft / 5,00 m torpedoes - 0,851 t each, 5,103 t total In 2 sets of deck mounted side rotating tubes Main DC/AS Mortars 2 - 88,18 lbs / 40,00 kg Depth Charges + 8 reloads - 0,394 t total in Stern depth charge racks Armour: - Belts: Width (max) Length (avg) Height (avg) Main: 2,99" / 76 mm 295,28 ft / 90,00 m 9,84 ft / 3,00 m Ends: 0,98" / 25 mm 229,66 ft / 70,00 m 9,84 ft / 3,00 m 19,69 ft / 6,00 m Unarmoured ends Main Belt covers 83% of normal length - Gun armour: Face (max) Other gunhouse (avg) Barbette/hoist (max) Main: 2,36" / 60 mm 1,18" / 30 mm 2,36" / 60 mm 2nd: 0,63" / 16 mm 0,31" / 8 mm - 3rd: 0,24" / 6 mm - - - Armoured deck - multiple decks: For and Aft decks: 1,38" / 35 mm Forecastle: 0,98" / 25 mm Quarter deck: 0,98" / 25 mm - Conning towers: Forward 2,99" / 76 mm, Aft 0,00" / 0 mm Machinery: Oil fired boilers, steam turbines, Geared drive, 4 shafts, 43 957 shp / 32 792 Kw = 27,00 kts Range 1 800nm at 14,00 kts Bunker at max displacement = 463 tons Complement: 525 - 683 Cost: £3,979 million / $15,915 million Distribution of weights at normal displacement: Armament: 1 014 tons, 9,5% - Guns: 1 003 tons, 9,4% - Weapons: 11 tons, 0,1% Armour: 1 199 tons, 11,2% - Belts: 449 tons, 4,2% - Armament: 234 tons, 2,2% - Armour Deck: 485 tons, 4,5% - Conning Tower: 31 tons, 0,3% Machinery: 1 332 tons, 12,5% Hull, fittings & equipment: 6 432 tons, 60,1% Fuel, ammunition & stores: 723 tons, 6,8% Miscellaneous weights: 0 tons, 0,0% Overall survivability and seakeeping ability: Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship): 13 821 lbs / 6 269 Kg = 16,0 x 12,0 " / 305 mm shells or 3,4 torpedoes Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1,12 Metacentric height 2,4 ft / 0,7 m Roll period: 18,0 seconds Steadiness - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 53 % - Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0,71 Seaboat quality (Average = 1.00): 1,06 Hull form characteristics: Hull has rise forward of midbreak, a normal bow and small transom stern Block coefficient (normal/deep): 0,515 / 0,516 Length to Beam Ratio: 8,30 : 1 'Natural speed' for length: 25,23 kts Power going to wave formation at top speed: 52 % Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 50 Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 17,00 degrees Stern overhang: 6,56 ft / 2,00 m Freeboard (% = length of deck as a percentage of waterline length): Fore end, Aft end - Forecastle: 18,00%, 22,97 ft / 7,00 m, 18,04 ft / 5,50 m - Forward deck: 42,00%, 18,04 ft / 5,50 m, 18,04 ft / 5,50 m - Aft deck: 26,00%, 13,12 ft / 4,00 m, 13,12 ft / 4,00 m - Quarter deck: 14,00%, 13,12 ft / 4,00 m, 14,76 ft / 4,50 m - Average freeboard: 16,55 ft / 5,04 m Ship tends to be wet forward Ship space, strength and comments: Space - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 75,9% - Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 114,3% Waterplane Area: 19 779 Square feet or 1 837 Square metres Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 137% Structure weight / hull surface area: 207 lbs/sq ft or 1 011 Kg/sq metre Hull strength (Relative): - Cross-sectional: 1,62 - Longitudinal: 2,26 - Overall: 1,68 Excellent machinery, storage, compartmentation space Adequate accommodation and workspace room Изучается вариант с 3х2 305...
von Echenbach: Аи Красный Кавказ ( + хБутаков-Ворошилов): 3х2 12" ретирадно / почти макси-Тромп/ - laid down 1930, Displacement: 9 881 t light; 10 439 t standard; 10 696 t normal; 10 902 t full load Dimensions: Length (overall / waterline) x beam x draught (normal/deep) (558,20 ft / 544,62 ft) x 52,49 ft (Bulges 65,62 ft) x (20,34 / 20,71 ft) (170,14 m / 166,00 m) x 16,00 m (Bulges 20,00 m) x (6,20 / 6,31 m) Armament: 6 - 12,01" / 305 mm 52,0 cal guns - 924,41lbs / 419,31kg shells, 90 per gun Breech loading guns in turret on barbette mounts, 1930 Model 1 x 2-gun mount on centreline, forward deck forward 2 x 2-gun mounts on centreline, aft deck aft 1 raised mount aft - superfiring 24 - 2,99" / 76,0 mm 45,0 cal guns - 13,51lbs / 6,13kg shells, 350 per gun Dual purpose guns in deck mounts, 1930 Model 8 x 2-gun mounts on sides, forward deck aft 4 x 2-gun mounts on sides, aft deck forward 8 - 1,46" / 37,0 mm 45,0 cal guns - 1,56lbs / 0,71kg shells, 550 per gun Auto rapid fire guns in deck mounts, 1930 Model 6 x Single mounts on sides, forward deck aft 6 raised mounts 2 x Single mounts on sides, aft deck forward 2 raised mounts Weight of broadside 5 883 lbs / 2 669 kg Main Torpedoes 6 - 17,7" / 450 mm, 16,40 ft / 5,00 m torpedoes - 0,851 t each, 5,103 t total In 2 sets of deck mounted side rotating tubes Main DC/AS Mortars 2 - 88,18 lbs / 40,00 kg Depth Charges + 8 reloads - 0,394 t total in Stern depth charge racks Armour: - Belts: Width (max) Length (avg) Height (avg) Main: 2,99" / 76 mm 295,28 ft / 90,00 m 9,84 ft / 3,00 m Ends: 0,98" / 25 mm 229,66 ft / 70,00 m 9,84 ft / 3,00 m 19,69 ft / 6,00 m Unarmoured ends Main Belt covers 83% of normal length Main belt does not fully cover magazines and engineering spaces - Gun armour: Face (max) Other gunhouse (avg) Barbette/hoist (max) Main: 2,99" / 76 mm 1,26" / 32 mm 2,99" / 76 mm 2nd: 0,63" / 16 mm 0,31" / 8 mm - 3rd: 0,24" / 6 mm - - - Armoured deck - multiple decks: For and Aft decks: 1,38" / 35 mm Forecastle: 0,98" / 25 mm Quarter deck: 0,98" / 25 mm - Conning towers: Forward 2,99" / 76 mm, Aft 0,00" / 0 mm Machinery: Oil fired boilers, steam turbines, Geared drive, 4 shafts, 43 957 shp / 32 792 Kw = 27,00 kts Range 1 800nm at 14,00 kts Bunker at max displacement = 463 tons Complement: 525 - 683 Cost: £4,799 million / $19,197 million Distribution of weights at normal displacement: Armament: 1 481 tons, 13,8% - Guns: 1 470 tons, 13,7% - Weapons: 11 tons, 0,1% Armour: 1 260 tons, 11,8% - Belts: 449 tons, 4,2% - Armament: 295 tons, 2,8% - Armour Deck: 485 tons, 4,5% - Conning Tower: 31 tons, 0,3% Machinery: 1 332 tons, 12,5% Hull, fittings & equipment: 5 808 tons, 54,3% Fuel, ammunition & stores: 815 tons, 7,6% Miscellaneous weights: 0 tons, 0,0% Overall survivability and seakeeping ability: Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship): 11 289 lbs / 5 120 Kg = 13,0 x 12,0 " / 305 mm shells or 2,7 torpedoes Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1,10 Metacentric height 2,3 ft / 0,7 m Roll period: 18,3 seconds Steadiness - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 50 % - Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0,99 Seaboat quality (Average = 1.00): 1,04 Hull form characteristics: Hull has rise forward of midbreak, a normal bow and small transom stern Block coefficient (normal/deep): 0,515 / 0,516 Length to Beam Ratio: 8,30 : 1 'Natural speed' for length: 25,23 kts Power going to wave formation at top speed: 52 % Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 48 Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 17,00 degrees Stern overhang: 6,56 ft / 2,00 m Freeboard (% = length of deck as a percentage of waterline length): Fore end, Aft end - Forecastle: 18,00%, 22,97 ft / 7,00 m, 18,04 ft / 5,50 m - Forward deck: 42,00%, 18,04 ft / 5,50 m, 18,04 ft / 5,50 m - Aft deck: 26,00%, 13,12 ft / 4,00 m, 13,12 ft / 4,00 m - Quarter deck: 14,00%, 13,12 ft / 4,00 m, 14,76 ft / 4,50 m - Average freeboard: 16,55 ft / 5,04 m Ship tends to be wet forward Ship space, strength and comments: Space - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 91,9% - Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 114,3% Waterplane Area: 19 779 Square feet or 1 837 Square metres Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 109% Structure weight / hull surface area: 195 lbs/sq ft or 954 Kg/sq metre Hull strength (Relative): - Cross-sectional: 1,31 - Longitudinal: 2,02 - Overall: 1,37 Adequate machinery, storage, compartmentation space Adequate accommodation and workspace room
von Echenbach: Версия, почти серьёзная , развитие возможности применения "коротких" (L/35-40) модернизированных орудий 203-254 \230-280\ -305 - 356 и других. Затронута тема в обсуждениях аи-Витте-2. 1. Осознанное лимитирование прицельной/эффективной дальности: для периода 1911-1918 - 90-120 каб и для периода 1922-1945 - 110-130 каб; 2. Тяжелые снаряды, примерно: для 203 - 140 кг, для 240 - 280-260 кг, для 305 - 454 кг и для 356 - 620 кг; 3. Начальная скорость- 666-777 м\с; 4. Скорострельность - 2-6 в минуту; 5. Лейнирование стволов и прочие технич. улучшения. Красный охотник: laid down 1924, Displacement: 11 007 t light; 11 872 t standard; 12 110 t normal; 12 300 t full load Dimensions: Length (overall / waterline) x beam x draught (normal/deep) (525,90 ft / 508,53 ft) x 75,46 ft x (20,34 / 20,59 ft) (160,29 m / 155,00 m) x 23,00 m x (6,20 / 6,27 m) Armament: 9 - 12,01" / 305 mm 35,0 cal guns - 1 000,90lbs / 454,00kg shells, 110 per gun Breech loading guns in turret on barbette mounts, 1924 Model 1 x 3-gun mount on centreline, forward deck forward 2 x 3-gun mounts on centreline, aft deck aft 1 raised mount aft - superfiring 16 - 3,94" / 100,0 mm 45,0 cal guns - 30,77lbs / 13,96kg shells, 250 per gun Dual purpose guns in deck mounts, 1924 Model 6 x 2-gun mounts on sides, forward deck aft 2 x 2-gun mounts on sides, aft deck forward 8 - 1,46" / 37,0 mm 45,0 cal guns - 1,56lbs / 0,71kg shells, 650 per gun Auto rapid fire guns in deck mounts, 1924 Model 4 x Single mounts on sides, aft deck forward 4 raised mounts 4 x Single mounts on sides, forward deck aft 4 raised mounts Weight of broadside 9 513 lbs / 4 315 kg Armour: - Belts: Width (max) Length (avg) Height (avg) Main: 7,09" / 180 mm 255,91 ft / 78,00 m 8,20 ft / 2,50 m Ends: 2,36" / 60 mm 203,41 ft / 62,00 m 9,84 ft / 3,00 m 49,21 ft / 15,00 m Unarmoured ends Main Belt covers 77% of normal length - Gun armour: Face (max) Other gunhouse (avg) Barbette/hoist (max) Main: 7,09" / 180 mm 3,15" / 80 mm 7,09" / 180 mm 2nd: 0,71" / 18 mm 0,24" / 6 mm - 3rd: 0,24" / 6 mm - - - Protected deck - single deck: For and Aft decks: 1,34" / 34 mm Forecastle: 0,55" / 14 mm Quarter deck: 0,94" / 24 mm - Conning towers: Forward 6,30" / 160 mm, Aft 0,00" / 0 mm Machinery: Oil fired boilers, steam turbines, Geared drive, 4 shafts, 37 050 shp / 27 639 Kw = 25,00 kts Range 1 600nm at 13,00 kts Bunker at max displacement = 428 tons Complement: 576 - 750 Cost: £3,434 million / $13,738 million Distribution of weights at normal displacement: Armament: 1 340 tons, 11,1% - Guns: 1 340 tons, 11,1% Armour: 2 394 tons, 19,8% - Belts: 858 tons, 7,1% - Armament: 832 tons, 6,9% - Armour Deck: 632 tons, 5,2% - Conning Tower: 72 tons, 0,6% Machinery: 1 220 tons, 10,1% Hull, fittings & equipment: 6 052 tons, 50,0% Fuel, ammunition & stores: 1 103 tons, 9,1% Miscellaneous weights: 0 tons, 0,0% Overall survivability and seakeeping ability: Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship): 18 362 lbs / 8 329 Kg = 21,2 x 12,0 " / 305 mm shells or 2,5 torpedoes Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1,20 Metacentric height 4,6 ft / 1,4 m Roll period: 14,8 seconds Steadiness - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 48 % - Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0,99 Seaboat quality (Average = 1.00): 1,04 Hull form characteristics: Hull has rise forward of midbreak, a normal bow and small transom stern Block coefficient (normal/deep): 0,543 / 0,545 Length to Beam Ratio: 6,74 : 1 'Natural speed' for length: 24,59 kts Power going to wave formation at top speed: 53 % Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 45 Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 17,00 degrees Stern overhang: 9,84 ft / 3,00 m Freeboard (% = length of deck as a percentage of waterline length): Fore end, Aft end - Forecastle: 18,00%, 24,61 ft / 7,50 m, 19,69 ft / 6,00 m - Forward deck: 46,00%, 19,69 ft / 6,00 m, 19,69 ft / 6,00 m - Aft deck: 22,00%, 13,12 ft / 4,00 m, 13,12 ft / 4,00 m - Quarter deck: 14,00%, 13,12 ft / 4,00 m, 13,12 ft / 4,00 m - Average freeboard: 17,68 ft / 5,39 m Ship tends to be wet forward Ship space, strength and comments: Space - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 76,9% - Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 158,3% Waterplane Area: 27 259 Square feet or 2 532 Square metres Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 120% Structure weight / hull surface area: 180 lbs/sq ft or 880 Kg/sq metre Hull strength (Relative): - Cross-sectional: 0,95 - Longitudinal: 2,17 - Overall: 1,03 Excellent machinery, storage, compartmentation space Excellent accommodation and workspace room
Инженер Сидоров: Надеюсь, ГК этого корабля - не Крупповская 12"/35 обр. 1886 года ("Наварин", "Чесма", "Гр. Победоносец"), рассчитанная под дымный порох, а принципиально новая система со своим боеприпасом... Ибо дальности 12"/35 обр.1886 (11 верст) для середины 20-х годов явно недостаточно. Кстати, в относительно коротких стволах не вижу особого криминала - британские 42-калиберные 15" прожили достаточно долгую жизнь, приняв участие в двух мировых войнах.
von Echenbach: АИ-вариант серии броненосцев береговой обороны "Красный защитник" (монитор, самоходная броненосная плавбатарея) - по 2-3 на ТВД: laid down 1928, Displacement: 6 401 t light; 6 993 t standard; 7 059 t normal; 7 112 t full load, 1х3 406/44, 8х2 100/42, Dimensions: Length (overall / waterline) x beam x draught (normal/deep) (333,73 ft / 324,80 ft) x 68,90 ft x (16,40 / 16,51 ft) (101,72 m / 99,00 m) x 21,00 m x (5,00 / 5,03 m) Armament: 3 - 15,98" / 406 mm 45,0 cal guns - 2 059,37lbs / 934,11kg shells, 110 per gun Breech loading guns in turret on barbette mount, 1928 Model 1 x 3-gun mount on centreline, aft deck aft 16 - 3,94" / 100,0 mm 42,0 cal guns - 29,59lbs / 13,42kg shells, 250 per gun Dual purpose guns in deck mounts, 1928 Model 4 x 2-gun mounts on centreline, forward evenly spread 4 x 2-gun mounts on sides, forward evenly spread 10 - 1,46" / 37,0 mm 55,0 cal guns - 1,67lbs / 0,76kg shells, 750 per gun Auto rapid fire guns in deck mounts, 1928 Model 10 x Single mounts on sides, evenly spread Weight of broadside 6 668 lbs / 3 025 kg Armour: - Belts: Width (max) Length (avg) Height (avg) Main: 8,66" / 220 mm 193,57 ft / 59,00 m 7,87 ft / 2,40 m Ends: 3,15" / 80 mm 104,99 ft / 32,00 m 8,20 ft / 2,50 m 26,25 ft / 8,00 m Unarmoured ends Main Belt covers 92% of normal length - Gun armour: Face (max) Other gunhouse (avg) Barbette/hoist (max) Main: 9,45" / 240 mm 2,36" / 60 mm 9,45" / 240 mm 2nd: 1,18" / 30 mm 0,59" / 15 mm - 3rd: 0,24" / 6 mm - - - Protected deck - single deck: For and Aft decks: 2,36" / 60 mm Forecastle: 1,18" / 30 mm Quarter deck: 1,18" / 30 mm - Conning towers: Forward 7,87" / 200 mm, Aft 0,00" / 0 mm Machinery: Diesel Internal combustion generators, Electric motors, 3 shafts, 8 920 shp / 6 654 Kw = 17,00 kts Range 900nm at 9,00 kts Bunker at max displacement = 119 tons Complement: 384 - 500 Cost: £3,289 million / $13,157 million Distribution of weights at normal displacement: Armament: 1 314 tons, 18,6% - Guns: 1 314 tons, 18,6% Armour: 1 829 tons, 25,9% - Belts: 734 tons, 10,4% - Armament: 316 tons, 4,5% - Armour Deck: 716 tons, 10,2% - Conning Tower: 62 tons, 0,9% Machinery: 278 tons, 3,9% Hull, fittings & equipment: 2 981 tons, 42,2% Fuel, ammunition & stores: 657 tons, 9,3% Miscellaneous weights: 0 tons, 0,0% Overall survivability and seakeeping ability: Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship): 8 538 lbs / 3 873 Kg = 4,2 x 16,0 " / 406 mm shells or 1,6 torpedoes Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1,42 Metacentric height 5,3 ft / 1,6 m Roll period: 12,6 seconds Steadiness - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 52 % - Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0,52 Seaboat quality (Average = 1.00): 1,04 Hull form characteristics: Hull has rise forward of midbreak, a normal bow and small transom stern Block coefficient (normal/deep): 0,673 / 0,674 Length to Beam Ratio: 4,71 : 1 'Natural speed' for length: 19,87 kts Power going to wave formation at top speed: 52 % Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 50 Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 19,00 degrees Stern overhang: 3,28 ft / 1,00 m Freeboard (% = length of deck as a percentage of waterline length): Fore end, Aft end - Forecastle: 20,00%, 16,40 ft / 5,00 m, 13,12 ft / 4,00 m - Forward deck: 44,00%, 13,12 ft / 4,00 m, 13,12 ft / 4,00 m - Aft deck: 21,00%, 7,87 ft / 2,40 m, 7,87 ft / 2,40 m - Quarter deck: 15,00%, 7,87 ft / 2,40 m, 9,84 ft / 3,00 m - Average freeboard: 11,64 ft / 3,55 m Ship tends to be wet forward Ship space, strength and comments: Space - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 90,2% - Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 101,8% Waterplane Area: 17 966 Square feet or 1 669 Square metres Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 87% Structure weight / hull surface area: 162 lbs/sq ft or 789 Kg/sq metre Hull strength (Relative): - Cross-sectional: 0,90 - Longitudinal: 2,59 - Overall: 1,00 Adequate machinery, storage, compartmentation space Adequate accommodation and workspace room
von Echenbach: Не вполне СССР, но мог присутствовать... супер-Измаил: 24 уз, 5х2 457/42, б-360, п-57 laid down 1912, Displacement: 30 998 t light; 33 221 t standard; 34 906 t normal; 36 254 t full load Dimensions: Length (overall / waterline) x beam x draught (normal/deep) (694,24 ft / 662,73 ft) x 104,99 ft x (26,25 / 27,09 ft) (211,60 m / 202,00 m) x 32,00 m x (8,00 / 8,26 m) Armament: 10 - 17,99" / 457 mm 42,0 cal guns - 2 823,96lbs / 1 280,93kg shells, 90 per gun Breech loading guns in turret on barbette mounts, 1912 Model 2 x 2-gun mounts on centreline, forward evenly spread 3 x 2-gun mounts on centreline, aft evenly spread 1 raised mount aft 24 - 4,72" / 120 mm 45,0 cal guns - 53,17lbs / 24,12kg shells, 150 per gun Quick firing guns in casemate mounts, 1912 Model 24 x Single mounts on sides, evenly spread 24 hull mounts in casemates- Limited use in heavy seas 6 - 2,99" / 76,0 mm 45,0 cal guns - 13,51lbs / 6,13kg shells, 150 per gun Quick firing guns in deck mounts, 1912 Model 6 x Single mounts on sides, aft deck forward Weight of broadside 29 597 lbs / 13 425 kg Armour: - Belts: Width (max) Length (avg) Height (avg) Main: 14,2" / 360 mm 377,30 ft / 115,00 m 9,84 ft / 3,00 m Ends: 2,36" / 60 mm 196,85 ft / 60,00 m 9,84 ft / 3,00 m 88,58 ft / 27,00 m Unarmoured ends Main Belt covers 88% of normal length Main Belt inclined 19,00 degrees (positive = in) - Gun armour: Face (max) Other gunhouse (avg) Barbette/hoist (max) Main: 13,0" / 330 mm 4,72" / 120 mm 14,2" / 360 mm 2nd: 0,71" / 18 mm 0,24" / 6 mm - - Protected deck - single deck: For and Aft decks: 2,24" / 57 mm Forecastle: 1,26" / 32 mm Quarter deck: 1,50" / 38 mm - Conning towers: Forward 11,02" / 280 mm, Aft 0,00" / 0 mm Machinery: Oil fired boilers, steam turbines, Geared drive, 4 shafts, 60 505 shp / 45 136 Kw = 24,00 kts Range 6 000nm at 12,00 kts Bunker at max displacement = 3 033 tons Complement: 1 276 - 1 659 Cost: £3,943 million / $15,774 million Distribution of weights at normal displacement: Armament: 5 187 tons, 14,9% - Guns: 5 187 tons, 14,9% Armour: 9 047 tons, 25,9% - Belts: 2 575 tons, 7,4% - Armament: 4 046 tons, 11,6% - Armour Deck: 2 173 tons, 6,2% - Conning Tower: 254 tons, 0,7% Machinery: 2 412 tons, 6,9% Hull, fittings & equipment: 14 352 tons, 41,1% Fuel, ammunition & stores: 3 908 tons, 11,2% Miscellaneous weights: 0 tons, 0,0% Overall survivability and seakeeping ability: Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship): 42 202 lbs / 19 142 Kg = 14,5 x 18,0 " / 457 mm shells or 3,5 torpedoes Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1,24 Metacentric height 7,9 ft / 2,4 m Roll period: 15,7 seconds Steadiness - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 47 % - Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0,85 Seaboat quality (Average = 1.00): 1,17 Hull form characteristics: Hull has raised forecastle, rise forward of midbreak, a normal bow and small transom stern Block coefficient (normal/deep): 0,669 / 0,673 Length to Beam Ratio: 6,31 : 1 'Natural speed' for length: 27,94 kts Power going to wave formation at top speed: 48 % Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 38 Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 27,00 degrees Stern overhang: 13,12 ft / 4,00 m Freeboard (% = length of deck as a percentage of waterline length): Fore end, Aft end - Forecastle: 18,00%, 36,09 ft / 11,00 m, 29,53 ft / 9,00 m - Forward deck: 36,00%, 22,97 ft / 7,00 m, 22,97 ft / 7,00 m - Aft deck: 31,00%, 16,40 ft / 5,00 m, 16,40 ft / 5,00 m - Quarter deck: 15,00%, 16,40 ft / 5,00 m, 19,69 ft / 6,00 m - Average freeboard: 21,85 ft / 6,66 m Ship space, strength and comments: Space - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 87,4% - Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 165,6% Waterplane Area: 55 654 Square feet or 5 170 Square metres Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 92% Structure weight / hull surface area: 230 lbs/sq ft or 1 125 Kg/sq metre Hull strength (Relative): - Cross-sectional: 0,94 - Longitudinal: 1,60 - Overall: 1,00 Adequate machinery, storage, compartmentation space Excellent accommodation and workspace room
Инженер Сидоров: Самое интересное - инициативное проектирование линкоров с 18" ГК в Российской Империи действительно имело место, даже планировалась закладка первых двух корпусов примерно годах так в 1918-19 в Николаеве. Но большевики, как всегда, до основания порушили (но затем ничего нового так и не смогли построить) все наполеоновские планы Морского Ведомства, да так, что даже следов проектной документации почти не осталось, кроме отдельных упоминаний, в частности, об изготовлении отливки заготовки будущего ствола ГК 18"/45
von Echenbach: Перелистывал "последние исполины" и задумался о бронепоясе - 237... Увы, даже для 1 мв уже очень слабо. Если "Гангуты" как первые и как ДР БО ещё ... пи... можно потерпеть. То 4 корпуса "Измаилов" - в аи: разбронируем, оставляем нижнюю бронепалубу, намного перестраиваем нос-корму, смещаем КМО в корму(4 дизель-генератора + 2 котла + 4 электродвигателя (Леди Сара и Лекс как пример), + 6-8 всп. дизелей для насосов и противопожарных систем, були - всп. танкеры ВМС с грузом в 29000 т. Возможно более раннее принятие договора Монтрё о проливах - аи-пункт: военные/всп. корабли не обложены пошлиной. + аи: туркам можно слить груз 1-2 танкеров. Вид оплаты. аи-танкер Измаил: laid down 1924, Displacement: 41 781 t light; 42 641 t standard; 42 997 t normal; 43 283 t full load Dimensions: Length (overall / waterline) x beam x draught (normal/deep) (764,19 ft / 741,47 ft) x 100,07 ft (Bulges 119,75 ft) x (29,53 / 29,72 ft) (232,92 m / 226,00 m) x 30,50 m (Bulges 36,50 m) x (9,00 / 9,06 m) Armament: 2 - 1,46" / 37,0 mm 45,0 cal guns - 1,56lbs / 0,71kg shells, 150 per gun Breech loading guns in deck mounts, 1924 Model 2 x Single mounts on sides, aft deck aft Weight of broadside 3 lbs / 1 kg Armour: - Belts: Width (max) Length (avg) Height (avg) Main: 1,18" / 30 mm 721,78 ft / 220,00 m 8,20 ft / 2,50 m Ends: Unarmoured Main Belt covers 150% of normal length - Armoured deck - multiple decks: For and Aft decks: 1,18" / 30 mm Forecastle: 0,79" / 20 mm Quarter deck: 0,79" / 20 mm - Conning towers: Forward 0,71" / 18 mm, Aft 0,00" / 0 mm Machinery: Diesel Internal combustion generators, Electric motors, 4 shafts, 2 623 shp / 1 957 Kw = 9,00 kts Range 2 200nm at 7,00 kts Bunker at max displacement = 641 tons Complement: 1 492 - 1 940 Cost: £4,558 million / $18,232 million Distribution of weights at normal displacement: Armament: 1 tons, 0,0% - Guns: 1 tons, 0,0% Armour: 1 399 tons, 3,3% - Belts: 271 tons, 0,6% - Armour Deck: 1 108 tons, 2,6% - Conning Tower: 19 tons, 0,0% Machinery: 86 tons, 0,2% Hull, fittings & equipment: 10 145 tons, 23,6% Fuel, ammunition & stores: 1 217 tons, 2,8% Miscellaneous weights: 30 150 tons, 70,1% - Hull below water: 29 400 tons - Hull above water: 200 tons - On freeboard deck: 500 tons - Above deck: 50 tons Overall survivability and seakeeping ability: Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship): 79 289 lbs / 35 965 Kg = 734,2 x 6 " / 152 mm shells or 5,1 torpedoes Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 2,60 Metacentric height 21,0 ft / 6,4 m Roll period: 11,0 seconds Steadiness - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 98 % - Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0,00 Seaboat quality (Average = 1.00): 1,96 Hull form characteristics: Hull has raised forecastle, rise aft of midbreak, a normal bow and a round stern Block coefficient (normal/deep): 0,574 / 0,574 Length to Beam Ratio: 6,19 : 1 'Natural speed' for length: 27,23 kts Power going to wave formation at top speed: 8 % Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 50 Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 18,00 degrees Stern overhang: 13,12 ft / 4,00 m Freeboard (% = length of deck as a percentage of waterline length): Fore end, Aft end - Forecastle: 17,00%, 29,53 ft / 9,00 m, 26,25 ft / 8,00 m - Forward deck: 56,00%, 19,69 ft / 6,00 m, 19,69 ft / 6,00 m - Aft deck: 14,00%, 26,25 ft / 8,00 m, 26,25 ft / 8,00 m - Quarter deck: 13,00%, 26,25 ft / 8,00 m, 26,25 ft / 8,00 m - Average freeboard: 22,80 ft / 6,95 m Ship tends to be wet forward Ship space, strength and comments: Space - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 76,0% - Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 142,0% Waterplane Area: 52 960 Square feet or 4 920 Square metres Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 136% Structure weight / hull surface area: 130 lbs/sq ft or 634 Kg/sq metre Hull strength (Relative): - Cross-sectional: 1,00 - Longitudinal: 1,00 - Overall: 1,00 Excellent machinery, storage, compartmentation space Excellent accommodation and workspace room Ship has slow, easy roll, a good, steady gun platform Excellent seaboat, comfortable, can fire her guns in the heaviest weather и 8-12 аи-буксиров обеспечения типа "Красный Нефтяник": laid down 1925, Displacement: 1 255 t light; 1 281 t standard; 1 300 t normal; 1 314 t full load Dimensions: Length (overall / waterline) x beam x draught (normal/deep) (177,88 ft / 170,60 ft) x 29,53 ft x (13,12 / 13,25 ft) (54,22 m / 52,00 m) x 9,00 m x (4,00 / 4,04 m) Armament: 2 - 1,46" / 37,0 mm 45,0 cal guns - 1,56lbs / 0,71kg shells, 50 per gun Quick firing guns in deck mounts, 1925 Model 2 x Single mounts on sides, aft deck aft Weight of broadside 3 lbs / 1 kg Armour: - Belts: Width (max) Length (avg) Height (avg) Main: 0,71" / 18 mm 167,32 ft / 51,00 m 6,56 ft / 2,00 m Ends: Unarmoured Main Belt covers 151% of normal length - Conning towers: Forward 0,28" / 7 mm, Aft 0,00" / 0 mm Machinery: Diesel Internal combustion motors, Geared drive, 2 shafts, 987 shp / 736 Kw = 12,00 kts Range 900nm at 9,00 kts Bunker at max displacement = 33 tons Complement: 107 - 140 Cost: £0,159 million / $0,637 million Distribution of weights at normal displacement: Armament: 1 tons, 0,1% - Guns: 1 tons, 0,1% Armour: 32 tons, 2,5% - Belts: 31 tons, 2,4% - Conning Tower: 1 tons, 0,1% Machinery: 32 tons, 2,5% Hull, fittings & equipment: 320 tons, 24,7% Fuel, ammunition & stores: 44 tons, 3,4% Miscellaneous weights: 870 tons, 66,9% - Hull below water: 770 tons - Hull above water: 60 tons - On freeboard deck: 20 tons - Above deck: 20 tons Overall survivability and seakeeping ability: Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship): 2 441 lbs / 1 107 Kg = 22,6 x 6 " / 152 mm shells or 0,9 torpedoes Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1,77 Metacentric height 2,0 ft / 0,6 m Roll period: 8,7 seconds Steadiness - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 44 % - Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0,00 Seaboat quality (Average = 1.00): 1,76 Hull form characteristics: Hull has raised forecastle, rise aft of midbreak, a normal bow and small transom stern Block coefficient (normal/deep): 0,688 / 0,689 Length to Beam Ratio: 5,78 : 1 'Natural speed' for length: 14,22 kts Power going to wave formation at top speed: 50 % Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 22 Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 2,50 degrees Stern overhang: 6,56 ft / 2,00 m Freeboard (% = length of deck as a percentage of waterline length): Fore end, Aft end - Forecastle: 20,00%, 16,40 ft / 5,00 m, 13,12 ft / 4,00 m - Forward deck: 30,00%, 9,84 ft / 3,00 m, 9,84 ft / 3,00 m - Aft deck: 35,00%, 16,40 ft / 5,00 m, 16,40 ft / 5,00 m - Quarter deck: 15,00%, 16,40 ft / 5,00 m, 16,40 ft / 5,00 m - Average freeboard: 14,04 ft / 4,28 m Ship space, strength and comments: Space - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 78,1% - Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 97,6% Waterplane Area: 4 100 Square feet or 381 Square metres Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 134% Structure weight / hull surface area: 39 lbs/sq ft or 193 Kg/sq metre Hull strength (Relative): - Cross-sectional: 0,84 - Longitudinal: 7,93 - Overall: 1,05 Excellent machinery, storage, compartmentation space Adequate accommodation and workspace room Excellent seaboat, comfortable, can fire her guns in the heaviest weather Корпуса могут "потом" пригодиться... Дизели - Германия, Англия, САСШ и др...
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