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Ещё раз (100500-й) о броненосцах
von Echenbach: 1. Проект Фишера "суперИнфлексибл": а) С возможностью вести носовой-кормовой огонь в нос-корму 6 орудтям ГК, 2. "суперИнфлексибл" с 3х2 (можно и эшелоном для усиления огня в носовых-кормовых секторах (отзвуки "Синопа"). Какие могли быть реакции франков. италианцев, американцев и Русских? И версия "зеркального" Синопа (2х2 в корме)
Ответов - 29, стр:
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von Echenbach: Состав эскадры: 3 БР, 6 БРКРЭ, 2 БрКР (3х2 210, 6-8 152), 4 ЛгКР (8-10 152), 3 авизо (4-6 105) и две флотилии МН (250 т, 26 уз, 1 88,3 51, 4 та). Флот: 3 эскадры + учебная эскадра и резервная. 2 крейсерских океанских эскадры по 3 БРКРО (или шарнхорст-роон реала, со сдвигом постройки на 10-12 лет ранее, или почтиНахимов (4х2 210) и /или м.б. 3х2 210 и 8 152), 3 ЛгКР, 3 ТР (12000 т груза угля, 3000 т прочих грузов, 6 105, 18-14 уз), 3 КЛ (1800 т, 16-21 уз, 1 152, 3 105). Отряд м.б. из 1 БР и 2 БРКРЭ - с возможностью сосредоточения огня на одном-двух неприятельских судах. Промоделировать наверное следует: Боевой отряд аи герм. Эскадры против 3 Маджестиков/ 4 Адмиралов.
von Echenbach: аи 3х2 240 Кайзер Фридрих: type laid down 1895, Displacement: 9 198 t light; 9 594 t standard; 10 100 t normal; 10 505 t full load Dimensions: Length (overall / waterline) x beam x draught (normal/deep) (419,95 ft / 410,11 ft) x 65,62 ft x (22,97 / 23,70 ft) (128,00 m / 125,00 m) x 20,00 m x (7,00 / 7,23 m) Armament: 6 - 9,45" / 240 mm 40,0 cal guns - 404,25lbs / 183,37kg shells, 120 per gun Breech loading guns in turret on barbette mounts, 1895 Model 1 x 2-gun mount on centreline, forward deck forward 2 x 2-gun mounts on centreline, aft evenly spread 8 - 4,13" / 105 mm 40,0 cal guns - 33,85lbs / 15,36kg shells, 150 per gun Quick firing guns in casemate mounts, 1895 Model 8 x Single mounts on sides, forward evenly spread 8 hull mounts in casemates- Limited use in heavy seas 6 - 3,46" / 88,0 mm 40,0 cal guns - 19,93lbs / 9,04kg shells, 150 per gun Quick firing guns in deck mounts, 1895 Model 6 x Single mounts on sides, forward deck aft Weight of broadside 2 816 lbs / 1 277 kg Main Torpedoes 4 - 17,7" / 450 mm, 16,40 ft / 5,00 m torpedoes - 0,487 t each, 1,946 t total submerged bow & stern tubes Armour: - Belts: Width (max) Length (avg) Height (avg) Main: 13,8" / 350 mm 252,62 ft / 77,00 m 8,20 ft / 2,50 m Ends: 5,91" / 150 mm 137,80 ft / 42,00 m 8,20 ft / 2,50 m 19,69 ft / 6,00 m Unarmoured ends Upper: 3,54" / 90 mm 252,62 ft / 77,00 m 4,92 ft / 1,50 m Main Belt covers 95% of normal length - Gun armour: Face (max) Other gunhouse (avg) Barbette/hoist (max) Main: 10,2" / 260 mm 4,72" / 120 mm 11,8" / 300 mm 2nd: 2,36" / 60 mm 0,79" / 20 mm - 3rd: 0,35" / 9 mm - - - Protected deck - single deck: For and Aft decks: 2,36" / 60 mm Forecastle: 0,98" / 25 mm Quarter deck: 0,98" / 25 mm - Conning towers: Forward 10,24" / 260 mm, Aft 1,18" / 30 mm Machinery: Coal fired boilers, complex reciprocating steam engines, Direct drive, 3 shafts, 13 429 ihp / 10 018 Kw = 19,00 kts Range 3 200nm at 10,00 kts Bunker at max displacement = 911 tons (100% coal) Complement: 503 - 654 Cost: £0,859 million / $3,437 million Distribution of weights at normal displacement: Armament: 666 tons, 6,6% - Guns: 662 tons, 6,6% - Weapons: 4 tons, 0,0% Armour: 3 350 tons, 33,2% - Belts: 1 707 tons, 16,9% - Armament: 765 tons, 7,6% - Armour Deck: 764 tons, 7,6% - Conning Towers: 115 tons, 1,1% Machinery: 2 276 tons, 22,5% Hull, fittings & equipment: 2 906 tons, 28,8% Fuel, ammunition & stores: 902 tons, 8,9% Miscellaneous weights: 0 tons, 0,0% Overall survivability and seakeeping ability: Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship): 11 125 lbs / 5 046 Kg = 26,4 x 9,4 " / 240 mm shells or 4,4 torpedoes Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1,25 Metacentric height 4,0 ft / 1,2 m Roll period: 13,8 seconds Steadiness - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 82 % - Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0,45 Seaboat quality (Average = 1.00): 1,65 Hull form characteristics: Hull has rise forward of midbreak, a ram bow and a cruiser stern Block coefficient (normal/deep): 0,572 / 0,576 Length to Beam Ratio: 6,25 : 1 'Natural speed' for length: 20,25 kts Power going to wave formation at top speed: 47 % Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 50 Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 7,00 degrees Stern overhang: 3,28 ft / 1,00 m Freeboard (% = length of deck as a percentage of waterline length): Fore end, Aft end - Forecastle: 18,00%, 22,97 ft / 7,00 m, 19,69 ft / 6,00 m - Forward deck: 28,00%, 19,69 ft / 6,00 m, 19,69 ft / 6,00 m - Aft deck: 40,00%, 13,12 ft / 4,00 m, 13,12 ft / 4,00 m - Quarter deck: 14,00%, 13,12 ft / 4,00 m, 13,12 ft / 4,00 m - Average freeboard: 16,38 ft / 4,99 m Ship space, strength and comments: Space - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 94,4% - Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 114,9% Waterplane Area: 19 172 Square feet or 1 781 Square metres Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 101% Structure weight / hull surface area: 116 lbs/sq ft or 565 Kg/sq metre Hull strength (Relative): - Cross-sectional: 0,93 - Longitudinal: 2,00 - Overall: 1,00 Adequate machinery, storage, compartmentation space Adequate accommodation and workspace room Ship has slow, easy roll, a good, steady gun platform Excellent seaboat, comfortable, can fire her guns in the heaviest weather
von Echenbach: аи учебные броненосные канонерки. Перестроены из фрегатов БО т. Адм. Лазарев 1898-1901. Дизели - 3, 3х2 152/45. 4 шт. laid down 1901, Displacement: 3 341 t light; 3 467 t standard; 3 506 t normal; 3 536 t full load Dimensions: Length (overall / waterline) x beam x draught (normal/deep) (273,34 ft / 269,03 ft) x 42,65 ft x (18,37 / 18,50 ft) (83,31 m / 82,00 m) x 13,00 m x (5,60 / 5,64 m) Armament: 6 - 5,98" / 152 mm 45,0 cal guns - 108,07lbs / 49,02kg shells, 150 per gun Quick firing guns in turret on barbette mounts, 1901 Model 1 x 2-gun mount on centreline, forward deck forward 2 x 2-gun mounts on centreline, aft evenly spread 8 - 1,85" / 47,0 mm 35,0 cal guns - 2,97lbs / 1,35kg shells, 150 per gun Quick firing guns in deck mounts, 1901 Model 8 x Single mounts on sides, evenly spread 8 raised mounts Weight of broadside 672 lbs / 305 kg Armour: - Belts: Width (max) Length (avg) Height (avg) Main: 4,72" / 120 mm 131,23 ft / 40,00 m 6,56 ft / 2,00 m Ends: 2,36" / 60 mm 131,23 ft / 40,00 m 6,56 ft / 2,00 m 6,56 ft / 2,00 m Unarmoured ends Main Belt covers 75% of normal length - Gun armour: Face (max) Other gunhouse (avg) Barbette/hoist (max) Main: 4,72" / 120 mm 3,54" / 90 mm 3,54" / 90 mm - Armoured deck - single deck: For and Aft decks: 0,94" / 24 mm Forecastle: 0,47" / 12 mm Quarter deck: 0,71" / 18 mm - Conning towers: Forward 4,72" / 120 mm, Aft 0,00" / 0 mm Machinery: Diesel Internal combustion motors, Geared drive, 3 shafts, 747 shp / 558 Kw = 10,00 kts Range 600nm at 7,00 kts Bunker at max displacement = 69 tons Complement: 227 - 296 Cost: £0,198 million / $0,793 million Distribution of weights at normal displacement: Armament: 189 tons, 5,4% - Guns: 189 tons, 5,4% Armour: 563 tons, 16,1% - Belts: 266 tons, 7,6% - Armament: 137 tons, 3,9% - Armour Deck: 136 tons, 3,9% - Conning Tower: 23 tons, 0,7% Machinery: 136 tons, 3,9% Hull, fittings & equipment: 2 453 tons, 70,0% Fuel, ammunition & stores: 164 tons, 4,7% Miscellaneous weights: 0 tons, 0,0% Overall survivability and seakeeping ability: Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship): 8 930 lbs / 4 051 Kg = 83,3 x 6,0 " / 152 mm shells or 3,6 torpedoes Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1,17 Metacentric height 1,9 ft / 0,6 m Roll period: 13,1 seconds Steadiness - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 67 % - Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0,23 Seaboat quality (Average = 1.00): 1,34 Hull form characteristics: Hull has raised forecastle, raised quarterdeck , a normal bow and a round stern Block coefficient (normal/deep): 0,582 / 0,583 Length to Beam Ratio: 6,31 : 1 'Natural speed' for length: 16,40 kts Power going to wave formation at top speed: 26 % Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 50 Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 3,00 degrees Stern overhang: 3,28 ft / 1,00 m Freeboard (% = length of deck as a percentage of waterline length): Fore end, Aft end - Forecastle: 18,00%, 19,69 ft / 6,00 m, 16,40 ft / 5,00 m - Forward deck: 25,00%, 6,56 ft / 2,00 m, 6,56 ft / 2,00 m - Aft deck: 42,00%, 6,56 ft / 2,00 m, 6,56 ft / 2,00 m - Quarter deck: 15,00%, 13,12 ft / 4,00 m, 13,12 ft / 4,00 m - Average freeboard: 9,55 ft / 2,91 m Ship space, strength and comments: Space - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 30,6% - Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 45,4% Waterplane Area: 8 252 Square feet or 767 Square metres Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 245% Structure weight / hull surface area: 202 lbs/sq ft or 986 Kg/sq metre Hull strength (Relative): - Cross-sectional: 2,91 - Longitudinal: 6,13 - Overall: 3,13 Excellent machinery, storage, compartmentation space Extremely poor accommodation and workspace room Good seaboat, rides out heavy weather easily
von Echenbach: версия аи-суперПересвета или аи-стандартный эскадренный броненосец (кормовые башни ГК могут не быть линейно-возвыш.): laid down 1895 Displacement: 10 942 t light; 11 548 t standard; 12 060 t normal; 12 469 t full load Dimensions: Length (overall / waterline) x beam x draught (normal/deep) (460,66 ft / 446,19 ft) x 68,90 ft x (24,61 / 25,27 ft) (140,41 m / 136,00 m) x 21,00 m x (7,50 / 7,70 m) Armament: 6 - 12,01" / 305 mm 40,0 cal guns - 829,70lbs / 376,34kg shells, 110 per gun Breech loading guns in turret on barbette mounts, 1895 Model 1 x 2-gun mount on centreline, forward deck forward 2 x 2-gun mounts on centreline, aft deck aft 1 raised mount aft - superfiring 12 - 4,72" / 120 mm 45,0 cal guns - 53,17lbs / 24,12kg shells, 150 per gun Quick firing guns in casemate mounts, 1895 Model 12 x Single mounts on sides, forward deck aft 6 hull mounts in casemates- Limited use in heavy seas 12 - 2,24" / 57,0 mm 45,0 cal guns - 5,70lbs / 2,58kg shells, 180 per gun Quick firing guns in deck mounts, 1895 Model 12 x Single mounts on sides, forward deck aft 12 raised mounts Weight of broadside 5 685 lbs / 2 579 kg Main Torpedoes 4 - 17,7" / 450 mm, 16,40 ft / 5,00 m torpedoes - 0,487 t each, 1,946 t total In 2 sets of deck mounted side rotating tubes Armour: - Belts: Width (max) Length (avg) Height (avg) Main: 10,2" / 260 mm 265,75 ft / 81,00 m 8,20 ft / 2,50 m Ends: 3,15" / 80 mm 164,04 ft / 50,00 m 9,84 ft / 3,00 m 16,40 ft / 5,00 m Unarmoured ends Upper: 3,15" / 80 mm 229,66 ft / 70,00 m 6,56 ft / 2,00 m Main Belt covers 92% of normal length Main belt does not fully cover magazines and engineering spaces - Gun armour: Face (max) Other gunhouse (avg) Barbette/hoist (max) Main: 10,2" / 260 mm 7,09" / 180 mm 11,0" / 280 mm 2nd: 3,54" / 90 mm 0,59" / 15 mm - 3rd: 0,24" / 6 mm - - - Protected deck - single deck: For and Aft decks: 1,46" / 37 mm Forecastle: 0,98" / 25 mm Quarter deck: 0,98" / 25 mm - Conning towers: Forward 9,45" / 240 mm, Aft 0,00" / 0 mm Machinery: Coal fired boilers, complex reciprocating steam engines, Geared drive, 3 shafts, 14 488 ihp / 10 808 Kw = 19,00 kts Range 2 300nm at 11,00 kts Bunker at max displacement = 921 tons (100% coal) Complement: 575 - 748 Cost: £1,174 million / $4,696 million Distribution of weights at normal displacement: Armament: 1 096 tons, 9,1% - Guns: 1 092 tons, 9,1% - Weapons: 4 tons, 0,0% Armour: 3 182 tons, 26,4% - Belts: 1 395 tons, 11,6% - Armament: 1 123 tons, 9,3% - Armour Deck: 556 tons, 4,6% - Conning Tower: 107 tons, 0,9% Machinery: 2 456 tons, 20,4% Hull, fittings & equipment: 4 209 tons, 34,9% Fuel, ammunition & stores: 1 117 tons, 9,3% Miscellaneous weights: 0 tons, 0,0% Overall survivability and seakeeping ability: Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship): 11 430 lbs / 5 185 Kg = 13,2 x 12,0 " / 305 mm shells or 4,4 torpedoes Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1,11 Metacentric height 3,5 ft / 1,1 m Roll period: 15,5 seconds Steadiness - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 78 % - Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0,94 Seaboat quality (Average = 1.00): 1,55 Hull form characteristics: Hull has rise forward of midbreak, a normal bow and a cruiser stern Block coefficient (normal/deep): 0,558 / 0,562 Length to Beam Ratio: 6,48 : 1 'Natural speed' for length: 21,12 kts Power going to wave formation at top speed: 44 % Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 50 Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 19,00 degrees Stern overhang: 6,56 ft / 2,00 m Freeboard (% = length of deck as a percentage of waterline length): Fore end, Aft end - Forecastle: 18,00%, 22,97 ft / 7,00 m, 18,04 ft / 5,50 m - Forward deck: 46,00%, 18,04 ft / 5,50 m, 18,04 ft / 5,50 m - Aft deck: 22,00%, 11,48 ft / 3,50 m, 11,48 ft / 3,50 m - Quarter deck: 14,00%, 11,48 ft / 3,50 m, 13,12 ft / 4,00 m - Average freeboard: 16,15 ft / 4,92 m Ship tends to be wet forward Ship space, strength and comments: Space - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 100,4% - Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 112,7% Waterplane Area: 21 616 Square feet or 2 008 Square metres Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 98% Structure weight / hull surface area: 149 lbs/sq ft or 726 Kg/sq metre Hull strength (Relative): - Cross-sectional: 0,93 - Longitudinal: 2,06 - Overall: 1,00 Adequate machinery, storage, compartmentation space Adequate accommodation and workspace room Ship has slow, easy roll, a good, steady gun platform Excellent seaboat, comfortable, can fire her guns in the heaviest weather
von Echenbach: На цусиме идёт обсуждение "идеального броненосца". Очень оригинальный и интересный проект "девятидюймового броненосца" предложил ув. Н-44, на базе проекта Нахимова т м.б. чуть от Николая 1. Представляю "экономную" версию аи-Сисой Великий: laid down 1890, Displacement: 7 371 t light; 7 861 t standard; 8 257 t normal; 8 575 t full load Dimensions: Length (overall / waterline) x beam x draught (normal/deep) (392,44 ft / 377,30 ft) x 62,34 ft x (18,04 / 18,64 ft) (119,62 m / 115,00 m) x 19,00 m x (5,50 / 5,68 m) Armament: 8 - 9,02" / 229 mm 35,0 cal guns - 343,57lbs / 155,84kg shells, 110 per gun Breech loading guns in turret on barbette mounts, 1890 Model 2 x 2-gun mounts on centreline ends, evenly spread 2 x Twin mounts on sides, forward deck aft 8 - 9,02" / 229 mm 35,0 cal guns - 343,57lbs / 155,84kg shells, 100 per gun Breech loading guns in casemate mounts, 1890 Model 4 x Single mounts on sides, forward evenly spread 4 hull mounts in casemates- Limited use in all but light seas 4 x Single mounts on sides, aft evenly spread 4 hull mounts in casemates- Limited use in all but light seas 16 - 1,85" / 47,0 mm 35,0 cal guns - 2,97lbs / 1,35kg shells, 150 per gun Quick firing guns in deck mounts, 1890 Model 16 x Single mounts on sides, evenly spread Weight of broadside 5 545 lbs / 2 515 kg Main Torpedoes 4 - 15,0" / 380 mm, 13,12 ft / 4,00 m torpedoes - 0,234 t each, 0,938 t total In 4 sets of deck mounted carriage/fixed tubes Armour: - Belts: Width (max) Length (avg) Height (avg) Main: 9,02" / 229 mm 242,78 ft / 74,00 m 8,20 ft / 2,50 m Ends: 3,23" / 82 mm 85,30 ft / 26,00 m 8,20 ft / 2,50 m 49,21 ft / 15,00 m Unarmoured ends Main Belt covers 99% of normal length - Gun armour: Face (max) Other gunhouse (avg) Barbette/hoist (max) Main: 9,02" / 229 mm 3,23" / 82 mm 9,02" / 229 mm 2nd: 5,00" / 127 mm 1,46" / 37 mm - - Protected deck - single deck: For and Aft decks: 1,42" / 36 mm Forecastle: 0,87" / 22 mm Quarter deck: 1,34" / 34 mm - Conning towers: Forward 7,01" / 178 mm, Aft 0,00" / 0 mm Machinery: Coal fired boilers, complex reciprocating steam engines, Direct drive, 2 shafts, 8 357 ihp / 6 234 Kw = 17,00 kts Range 2 000nm at 11,00 kts Bunker at max displacement = 714 tons (100% coal) Complement: 433 - 563 Cost: £0,777 million / $3,108 million Distribution of weights at normal displacement: Armament: 853 tons, 10,3% - Guns: 852 tons, 10,3% - Weapons: 1 tons, 0,0% Armour: 2 212 tons, 26,8% - Belts: 885 tons, 10,7% - Armament: 793 tons, 9,6% - Armour Deck: 473 tons, 5,7% - Conning Tower: 62 tons, 0,7% Machinery: 1 548 tons, 18,7% Hull, fittings & equipment: 2 758 tons, 33,4% Fuel, ammunition & stores: 886 tons, 10,7% Miscellaneous weights: 0 tons, 0,0% Overall survivability and seakeeping ability: Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship): 10 036 lbs / 4 552 Kg = 27,4 x 9,0 " / 229 mm shells or 8,5 torpedoes Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 1,44 Metacentric height 4,6 ft / 1,4 m Roll period: 12,2 seconds Steadiness - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 76 % - Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0,70 Seaboat quality (Average = 1.00): 1,81 Hull form characteristics: Hull has a flush deck, a normal bow and a round stern Block coefficient (normal/deep): 0,681 / 0,684 Length to Beam Ratio: 6,05 : 1 'Natural speed' for length: 19,42 kts Power going to wave formation at top speed: 46 % Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 42 Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 13,00 degrees Stern overhang: 9,84 ft / 3,00 m Freeboard (% = length of deck as a percentage of waterline length): Fore end, Aft end - Forecastle: 18,00%, 22,97 ft / 7,00 m, 14,76 ft / 4,50 m - Forward deck: 33,00%, 14,76 ft / 4,50 m, 14,76 ft / 4,50 m - Aft deck: 34,00%, 14,76 ft / 4,50 m, 14,76 ft / 4,50 m - Quarter deck: 15,00%, 14,76 ft / 4,50 m, 18,37 ft / 5,60 m - Average freeboard: 15,63 ft / 4,76 m Ship space, strength and comments: Space - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 95,8% - Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 119,9% Waterplane Area: 18 532 Square feet or 1 722 Square metres Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 101% Structure weight / hull surface area: 126 lbs/sq ft or 614 Kg/sq metre Hull strength (Relative): - Cross-sectional: 0,92 - Longitudinal: 2,02 - Overall: 1,00 Adequate machinery, storage, compartmentation space Adequate accommodation and workspace room Ship has slow, easy roll, a good, steady gun platform Excellent seaboat, comfortable, can fire her guns in the heaviest weather
Пан директор: Во-первых Сисой - закладывался как барбетный броненосец из которого сделали нормальный башенный (причем ещё и с другими пушками). Нахимов с 8 203-мм пушками имел водоизмещение 8500 тонн. А вы предлагаете вдвое большее вооружение в меньшее водоизмещение Во-вторых вы в данном случае представляете очередную версию Гангута 1888 года, который изначально имел 6 229/35. http://keu-ocr.narod.ru/Gangut/
von Echenbach: Пан директор пишет: вдвое большее вооружение в меньшее водоизмещение von Echenbach пишет: представляю "экономную" версию аи- Огрехи строительства доведут до 9000-9500 т. ри СВ проектировался с барбетами, построен с башнями. На аи-проекте нет СК и дальность плавания небольшая. Близок ещё и тип ЭБР "Виттельсбах" по развитию количества СК. Его тоже можно отнести к "правильным" броненосцам?
von Echenbach: Пан директор пишет: очередную версию Гангута 1888 года, который изначально имел 6 229/35. Действительно, похож. Можно и скорость до 15 узлов для экономии довести, и от казематных и кормовой башни 9" отказаться - при ри Александре, Шестакове и др. Спасибо.
Инженер Сидоров: И наверняка получим, как уже было, что-то вроде "одна пушка, одна мачта, одна труба - одно сплошное недоразумение". Может не надо нам такого "счастья", а опираясь на послезнание (правда, для этого нужен правильный попаданец на пост Председателя МТК), сразу построить четверку улучшенных "Севастополей" (175х25х10х0,64=28.000 т, 4х2 (линейно-возвышенно) - 12"/40, ПМК - 20-22 - 120/45 в казематах побортно, 32 котла Бельвиль (вроде, уже есть) на 4 трубы, броня компаунд)? Отряд таких кораблей запросто порвёт на британский флаг не только каких-то там макак узкоглазых, но и даже самих "просвещённых мореплавателей"... Уж если прогрессорствовать, то по максимуму и чтобы никакой экономии!
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